Wis. Judge Rules For GOP On Recall Procedures

Actually, the burden of proof usually lies with those who pursue an outcome. In this case, since Walker is the target, he should not have to prove they do not have enough valid signatures. They should have to prove they do.

Any way you look at it, the outcome will in all probability remain the same.

That will just cement Walker's ultimate fate!

It's walker that has a problem with the recall procedure that the petitioners have be following. He's the one that has the "burden of proof".

Actually, the burden of proof usually lies with those who pursue an outcome

Not until today, it didn't. This judge is just changing the rules because the GOP is terrified of such a visible, public rebuke from the voters.

Of course, the voters are rebuking Walker because he changed his entire tune after being elected. He did not stand for office promising to end unions.

I think this makes more sense than the way the rules were. The burden of proof should be on those who pursue an outcome, not the other way around.

Feigning outrage over something like this takes away from other issues that people should be outraged over.

thisbusymonster,

Please tell me which unions he ended? Which unions did Walker dissolve?

Actually, the burden of proof usually lies with those who pursue an outcome. In this case, since Walker is the target, he should not have to prove they do not have enough valid signatures. - Comment #2.1

But I believe, and I will argue that while the premise is correct - it paints an erroneous view of the situation. Indeed - the burden of proof lies with those who pursue an outcome. However, the 'target' of the action of the suit is not Walker or the recall effort - the 'target' is one (or more) of the signature(s) on the petition. The 'outcome' that is being pursued is the removal of a signature (or signatures) from the petition. Thus, the folks who are questioning the validity of the signature(s) are the ones who should bear the burden of proof to show that it is (they are) invalid.

I believe that this ruling should be appealed.

The burden of proving that the signatures are valid should rightfully fall on those who are trying to produce valid signatures to schedule a recall election. Nifty little piece of tap dancing, though.

Look at it this way. If the burden of proof was on the target, it would be equivalent to saying the burden of proof is on the defendant.

I heartily disagree. If the law says you have to have x number of valid signatures, whether to get on a ballot or force a recall election, those getting the signatures should have to show they are indeed valid and that they have complied with the law. They certainly have to sign a document certifying they are valid. If you don't want to prove you complied with the requirements, then put some teeth in the certification document. Falsifying it should automatically cancel the effort and those that certified it should have to reimburse the taxpayers for the expense.

The burden of proving that the signatures are valid should rightfully fall on those who are trying to produce valid signatures to schedule a recall election. - Comment #2.8

Perhaps that's your opinion - but in my opinion your opinion isn't shared by the State of Wisconsin - at least, not as I interpret their laws. For instance, see their laws on recall (Wisc. Statutes Section 9.10). Paragraph 2(g) clearly states that,

The burden of proof for any challenge rests with the individual bringing the challenge.

Paragraph 3(b) starts out by saying that,

Within 10 days after the petition is offered for filing, the officer against whom the petition is filed may file a written challenge with the official, specifying any alleged insufficiency.

It seems clear to me that the 'officer against whom the petition is filed' is the 'individual' who is presenting the challenge, and so is the person on whom the burden of proof rests.

The whole theory smacks (to me, at least) of the 'innocent until proven guilty' theory. That is - I am who I claim I am unless you prove otherwise - so the petitioner passes along the signature, confident that the person is who he/she says he/she is - until someone else (say, in this case, Walker) claims that the signer is not who he/she says he/she is. In that case - it's up to Walker to prove it.

As an aside - I have to note that one of the 'reforms' that the Walker administration has implemented is to allow suits against the government to be filed in any county of the state - not just Dane County (where Madison is located). Note that this suit was filed in Waukesha County, which is, as Wikipedia describes,

"Waukesha County is recognized nationally as one of the Republican Party's most solid suburban strongholds."

Is it a coincidence that a Republican judge in Waukesha County interpreted the Wisconsin Statutes to favor Walker? I think not. I'd like to see this judgement appealed.

If you ignore the judge's ruling you are correct about the law as it was. However, just as on Newsvine, when you make a claim, you should prove it. If you claim you have valid signatures, prove it.

Again - the judge's ruling seems to me to fly in the face of Wisconsin law as it currently is written. See - for example, page 6 of the GAB document "Recall of Congressional, County and State Officials" where we read under the section 'Challenges to a Recall Petition',

"The information on a recall petition is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise. GAB 2.05(4), Wis. Adm. Code."

Here on Newsvine, as elsewhere - I've found that claims in comments are often assumed to be valid unless challenged. The challenger presents evidence to the contrary - and then the original commentor defends the challenge. Of course, if the original commenter wants to present supporting evidence when a claim is first made - that's OK too.

I still think that the judge's ruling wouldn't stand on appeal.

The judge, as judges do, ruled on the validity of the law. He found it wanting, as indeed it is. If you claim you have discovered a cure for the common cold, it is up to you to prove it. Just ask the FDA.

Would you be in favor of severe penalties for those certifying the accuracy of the elements of the petition if it is proven to be false?

The judge, as judges do, ruled on the validity of the law. He found it wanting, as indeed it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'validity of the law' or that it is 'wanting'. Is it unconstitutional? It was passed by the legislature - so it must be 'valid' (at least, that's what I'd argue). I can understand your argument that the petitioners must validate the entries (I don't agree - but I can see your logic). However, it seems that the judge has ruled that it's the responsibility of the GAB to validate the signatures. To me - that's like asking the judge at a trial to gather evidence. As I've been told by judges - it's not the responsibility of the judge to cull the record. It seems to me that the GAB should judge the validity of a challenge - and it would lead to a conflict of interest if the GAB both made the challenge and judged the validity of the challenge.

Would you be in favor of severe penalties for those certifying the accuracy of the elements of the petition if it is proven to be false?

I suppose I would if there was malicious intent involved. As an engineer, I certify the accuracy of my work (and occasionally of others whose work I review). I follow procedures that are generally accepted to be state-of-the-art (or state-of-the-practice). It may turn out that I have certified something that ultimately turns out to be wrong. However, as long as I follow ethical and professional guidelines, I am not censured for that 'certification'. I'd hold petitioners to the same standard.

since when did democrats start caring about how much money they spend on getting their way?

I advise you not to go there. How many Republican-initiated recall elections can we point to over just the last decade. You've got nowhere to go with that one, fella.

Aside from that, this is the voters. That is why they have to gather that many signatures -- to ensure that the need to recall is coming from the community and not some special interest group.

Walker just, as usual, for a Republican, doesn't really want to hear from the voters after he's tricked his way into office.

cant this be done with adobe acrobat?

No. Software cannot replace human judgment. Nor do we want it to. One reason we don't need mechanized voting, either. Software can be corrupted without anyone noticing it until it is too late. Humans can be subpoenaed.

anyway, since when did democrats start caring about how much money they spend on getting their way? its not like it comes out of their pockets...

That is a ridiculous statement considering the RNC is still millions of dollars in debt. The DNC spends more money because they raise more money. The RNC, which claims to be the party of fiscal responsibility actually spends more money than they raise.

Of course, don't let these little facts cloud your judgement.

All Walker is trying to do is keep people OUT of the electoral process!

How? The electoral process already took place! Walker won! All the public sector unions are trying to do is get more private taxpayer dollars for themselves! They didn't like the outcome of the "electoral process" so they want a "do-over."

CODE PINK

They didn't like the outcome of the "electoral process" so they want a "do-over."

Kind of like what's being done to the President in Georgia.Huh?

How many Republican-initiated recall elections can we point to over just the last decade.

Okay, I'll bite...how many?

hmmm, I rest my case.

I didn't notice if the article said the judge was appointed by an R or D. Might have made a difference.

As the R's say, "Damned those activist judges!"

@ Shelby,

It's only activism when the rulings don't go the Republican way...

Correction: It's only activism when rulings don't go your way.

Is that why the republicans have become such anti-American activist recently? Because things are not going their way and just think it only took a year for people to realize they were making America worse.

It is my understanding that when they first started the recall process, their goal was to get 750,000 signatures - sort of as a statement, and to be on the safe side.

feliz, we knew he was going to pull whatever he could and we knew he'd use the tens of millions flowing to him by the Kochs and other corporate cronies to do it. Not defending him at all, just saying.

What he can't seem to wrap his little pea-brain around is, there are enough people in Wisconsin who want him out, and money or not, they will see to it that this recall happens.

If the goal was 750,000, as Shelby says, and there's no reason to doubt that for a minute, then Walker doesn't have a snowball's chance of coming out of this unscathed. I hope they slam-dunk this guy. He needs to go.

Ummm, so the will of ALL the people in Wisconsin is to get the rascal out, right? Following that logic then Walker would never have gotten elected in the first place. Mob rule?

Following that logic then Walker would never have gotten elected in the first place.

No, have you never bought a product that did not live up to its advertising and try to return it?

Those are the rules.

Republicans never complain about the rules until they start losing, then they try to change the rules so that the rules favor the GOP.

Republicans never complain about the rules until they start losing, then they try to change the rules so that the rules favor the GOP.

hmm, but isn't it the Dems who didn't like it that they LOST and started this whole ball by trying to recall Walker in the first place? Gawl, that's some funny crap...

vol,

You forget that this tactic of challenging the status of an election started back in 2000, when Al Gore wanted a limited recount in Democratic counties in Florida in violation of Florida law. He took it to the Florida Supreme Court whom decided to be partisan instead of objective and overturned the Florida law; which caused Bush to take it to the US Supreme Court, whom voted to carry out the Florida law that required a full state recount. In the end, Bush won Florida and the Democrats still whine about it today, despite the various newspaper articles claiming that even if Al Gore got his limited recount; Bush still would have won.

so the seiu buses in their minions , signs petitions with a hotel address and now they are pissed because they have to validate signatures....got it..

sounds like the games dems play when they don't win......the whining goes on and on, fortunately wisc has plenty of cheese..

sounds about right, tomwcraig and kaitlin....

#9. What judges are those, Mike, and how much did the Koch's pay them? Who says it is the "citizens wishes?" There are a whole lot more citizens in Wisconsin than signed the petition. Do you object to all the outside union and groups money coming in from out of state to support the recall?

That is my opinion, we know Walker was in D.C. to drum up support,and if a union donates to the recall that money is from individual people collected by something made up of people, Koch money is 2 men with an agenda that does not help the average person.we already know walker crony's are stealing money, petitions,and good peoples livelihoods.

#9.2. Excuses, excuses. People are people, whether 100 or 2 and it's a matter of opinion whether the unions do anything to help the average person or just themselves. All the union gloating when money and buses came rolling in the state to help them is sure sour grapes now that money is coming in for Walker.

Walker isn't done yet he's got the best judges Koch money can buy

Can, you source that for me? I'll wait....

I’m so glqd the koch bros. have donated to a good cause then...

Koch and other republican money

In my opinion, the Unions are no different than corporations. Until the recent lawsuits, Union members dues are automatically hijacked for campaign donations, without regard to the employee political affiliation. It should be "dollar for dollar from EACH employee ON THEIR OWN, not from a Union enmasse pool.

The dollars contributed by Kochs and other republican donators are paltry compared to the Bankster cash Obama has been reeling in. Even in 08, he harnessed most of the Wall Street Money! And just look at the UNION money! This is much worse collaberation than any old Koch brother could dream up.

And NOTHING can compare to the billions that Soros has used for NGO's, Media sites, Fact check sites to achieve a permanent democratic majority. He is even funding GOOGLE now!!

Soros has been convicted of insider trading in France, wanted in Russia, collapsed Thailand and Argentina with the SAME tactics he is using on America. Russia kicked him out. Now Soros finally has a partner in his schemes, Obama. Read this...and of course, this is not from the Government controlled media. They are hiding all these details from the citizens.

Blueprint For Argentina (now for America)

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2011/04/23/blueprint-for-america-soros-and-the-globalists-takeover-of-argentina

Oh and the fact is Bugs Bunny was signed on a republican ballot when Walker was for recalls.and why hasn't he spoke out about the criminal acts his supporters have done?

Mike - Walker is a scumbag, however that is not what this seed is about.

When creating a petition to remove someone from office, do you think the people organizing the petition should be responsible for verifying that it is legitimate, or do you think that the person who is up for recall should carry that burden?

Forget about Dem/Repub for a second. Do you really disagree with the judges decision?

Whether we agree or disagree, these are the rules that are in place. They were good enough for the previous recall efforts for both parties.

#11.1 Mike, what criminal acts having to do with the recall?

whino33: Sorry to get off topic, I'm of two minds on this one,some responsibility on the part of both party's just of the top of my pointy head.but in all seriousness I really am not sure seems that there would be precedent for this, have to do some research.

the destruction of petitionsby walker supporters.threats to people that they better not sign said petitions.

Whether we agree or disagree, these are the rules that are in place. They were good enough for the previous recall efforts for both parties.

Using your logic, we would never improve any of the systems that we have in place. Your argument is the equivalent of "that's how it's been done before".

My point is that prior to this decision, the rules that were in place were illogical, unfair and in need of improvement. The judge obviously agreed and made his decision accordingly. Just because the decision went against the political party that I happen to identify with, doesn't make it a bad decision.

I think most of the people who are complaining about this decision consider themselves to be liberal, yet they are complaining about a decision that is actually more in line with liberal values than the previous system. Ironic and sad.

#11.6. And you don't think that took place during the previous recalls by the other side?

Not at all, there is a state legislature that is free to pass new legislation with regard to the recall process. The bottom line is that the rules were not created in a vacuum. No one is 'stuck' with the rules but the process should be used as is until that process is changed. Instead of using that process he sought out a judge to invalidate the rules because they were not in his favor at this time. I do not find it unfair or illogical for the party that is questioning petition signatures to have a burden to show what signatures they object to, such a thing would prevent arbitrary challenges simply to delay the recall process.

Lawsuits are a pretty common reaction to a situation that is perceived to be unfair, so I don't have a problem with it.

It may prevent arbitrary challenges but it also encourages falsifying documents in order to waste your political opponents time and money.

Of course Walker is still going to have to go through the list, but that doesn't meant that a serious effort shouldn't be made initially to keep it legit. That seems to be all that this ruling is stating.

Whether we agree or disagree, these are the rules that are in place. They were good enough for the previous recall efforts for both parties.

Not at all, there is a state legislature that is free to pass new legislation with regard to the recall process.

The purpose of the judicial branch is to challenge unconstitutional laws, both at a federal and state level; but judges can only rule on these laws when they are presented to them in court. Dred Scott was not changed through legislation, it was changed through judicial action. If we went by your means of determining right and wrong under the law (e.g. only change something when the legislature gets around to it), we wouldn't have desegregation or women's suffrage.

If the people of WI want Walker out, they can go through the process of ensuring that it is actually THE PEOPLE signing those petitions in the first place. I agree with the judge.

threats to people that they better not sign said petitions.

Again, please source that...

the only threats i saw publicized where when the unions threatened local businesses with vandalism if they didn’t support the union protesters....

It matters if the people doing the counting are paid from the same chekcbook that bought the judge.

They just read the Florida playbook. Republicans always go for thge best election money can buy.

Hi jeff good to see ya,Walker appointees charged according to leading Wisconsin paper,careful Repubs out in force.

riiiiiiiiight.

Dog:

No, the reaming Americans in this country want Walker out. Alot more than out i would wager.

the reaming Americans, you know, the Union boss buying the Dem politician bending over "collectively bargaining" the taxpayer.......... reaming Americans.

I meant remaining Americans. Damned arthritis! Apologies.

Because the Republicans are trying to change the rules to favor themselves, again.

How Terry? How are the Republicans doing that? What rules? You know, it's all fine and dandy for the Dems to shout higher taxation for the good of the nation, then say, "Yeah, I won't pay more for my own benefits, but raise taxes and all will be well." Double standard, don't ya think?

No it's not. Taxpayer costs for Public sector union benefits are included into tax payer cost. It's relative.

Just wondering. Why would it take an order from a judge to get state agency to do it's job?

Good question tesla013. But then, we dealing with a mind set that somehow thinks it's OK, to run away from their responsibilities during legislative sessions, to obstruct the true will of the people. So, I guess, this is just another example of a party and class of thinking that doesn't give a squat about the rule of law, unless it favors their specific needs. Can it be more obvious?

Not to mention the WASTE of taxpayer resources involved in the process! Everyone in that office should be fired but I bet a body part that their union contract prevents them for being fired for dereliction of duty.

#16.7 tesla013

Is there a judges' union? Puhleeze stop it. The law was clear and worked well until Walker was the target of the recall. Suddenly, mid-stream--the law changes? Another poster mentioned how the goal posts keep moving when it comes to the Koch toadies.

Your comment makes no sense at all Slim care to clarify? Unless you are fixing to spout some 'X-Files' conspiracy theory, in that case you may spare me if you please.

So he talked to political contributors and this makes him guilty of exactly what? Talking to folks the left does not like? Gee can the right go after any politician who has spoken to that Soros fella too?

Sir( I assume you are a sir) The only honorable politicians on this earth are in graveyards across the globe. The very nature of politics, especially in this day and age, precludes anything even resembling honor. The Kochs, The Kochs, I thought you said this was not grammar school? These the same Koch's that donate so much money to the arts and PBS? And do not these individuals operate in nearly the same manner as one George Soros? If you want to debate with me, honesty on EVERY level is going to be required. otherwise you are doing nothing more than using adult language to say the same childish thing.

I have been informed that Ma'am is the honorific I should have used. Apologies if my information is correct. If not then Sir it is.

These the same Koch's that donate so much money to the arts and PBS?

And Hitler was a vegetarian who liked puppies and children, it didn't stop him from being a monster.

What's your point?

feliz,

there was an episode of MayDay (the show about plane crashes) that had David Koch on it (yeah he actually once flew commercial lol), and if you listen to him and what he said, you would clearly see how ugly a man he is on the inside.

Tis no deflection and you know it. To often libs toss that word around to avoid real debate. You wished to talk about corporate money influencing a politician and you went straight to the Kochs. I countered(and that is the correct term, not delfection) with the fact that you do not want to mention the other corporate leash holder in politics, Soros(I direct you to comment 9.7 for further information on Soros an his political dealings). This is a blatant attempt by you to avoid the issue and in fact is smply saying "well that Walker guy is much worse than our guy." And you told me this was not grammar school. You may not wish to debate it, and I understand physical limitations, but you opened this door in 16.10 and now you wish to close it before I have a chance to rebutt. That is not debate but rather something akin to trolling though I am not sure what label one would use when it is being done by the seeder/author.

Terry my point, since it sailed on you, is simple. There is more than a single monster.

Jonathan: You base your supposition on a "performance" on a television show? This is where we formulate our "realistic" opinions? Sweet Jesus.

The Koch brothers are relevant to the topic at hand

Our own president has shown partiality to SEIU... Stern having been the most frequent visitor to the White House. As I am now subsizing many public/private unions due to the bailouts, that is MUCH worse than any old Koch contributions.

See my post at 9.7

Prove he is a stooge to the Koch brothers. Because I bet you dollars to doughnuts I can use the same formula you use to convict every single democrat in office of being someones stooge as well.

Tesla

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2011/02/22/a-secret-deal-between-gov-walker-and-koch-brothers-buried-in-state-budget/

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2011/02/10103/full-transcript-walker-koch-call

I direct you to 9.7 have fun I already know bout both of em. Keep tellin you guys I read watch PBS listen to NPR I even watch several global news telecasts on PBS as well. Been checking out all these movies that have been done Starting with ole tubby ass Micheal Moore Capitalism a love story. Inside Job was another good one. It ain't me you gotta convince. All three are bad for our system of politics.

Prove he is a stooge to the Koch brothers. Because I bet you dollars to doughnuts I can use the same formula you use to convict every single democrat in office of being someones stooge as well.

For the vast majority on both sides, I agree. And that is why we need to totally revamp our approach to money in politics.

First we need to change money from a form of free speech to a form of the vote. This means everyone has an equal vote (same small contribution size). It automatically denies the use of money in politics to non citizens and non persons. Until social constructs like corporations, businesses, unions, NGOs, PACs, etc get the right to vote they are prohibited from contributing to political campaigns, including issue ads. The limits on contribution size should be small enough that 90% of the citizenry can afford to contribute the max. And total contributions within any given year should be limited to what 50% of the citizenry can afford to contribute.

In this way it is the people that buy the politicians and not the special interest groups with money.

Tim S. Hey that's an idea. And that is what we need more of... ideas. We also need to let these bums know we ain't near as dumb as they are hopin we are.

#17. How many signatures do they have now with 12 days to go?

I don't know Tyler they are pretty tight lipped about the numbers now that they have to be verified.

Get listed so you won't end up on the recall list, wouldn't want some do-gooder signing you up from the phone book.

http://www.verifytherecall.com/

Bootstraps, excellent. Thanks for the link.

good lord your trained to get everything wrong. Please do provide us with all those multiple voters we hear so much of ... They already pay portion of their retirement...its called deferred compensation. Dont worry though , there will be millions of recall petitions to toss Walker out on his ear, like the last right wing douche to attempt this crap in the 50's...

We can't provide them yet............we don't have the recall sheets in hand. Several people have been notified that their names were seen on the sheets even if they refused to sign. One big name out there was Vicki McKenna. And no they didn't pay a portion of their retirement deferred or otherwise. What are you talking about?

Oh, here we go with the race card. Knock it off already. Jeez Louise, that just lost a ton in credibility.

I continue to ask... Why does the left always play the race card first, and more frequently?

Why are they so obsessed with a person's race?

Global,

Because they are the first to see race as the basis for someone's political stance due to being racists deep in their heart. They don't want people to succeed and show that race DOESN'T matter; because once that happens then they are no longer necessary for people to get a leg up. This is why they go nuts when a true Conservative raises his or her head up. Because, the true Conservative doesn't believe in race only ability and talent. The true Conservative sees everyone as equal except on the talent basis and then realizes that those people are still equal but talented in different areas. For example, a black man could be an exceptional artist, while a white woman could be a superb public speaker, while a Hispanic could be an excellent salesman, while an Asian could be a supreme engineer, while an Native American/American Indian could be a great teacher. Everyone has a talent, and it is up to that person to nurture and grow that talent. The problem is that Liberals want everyone to be dependent and therefore enslaved to the state. They won't see that they want that, because they deceive themselves into thinking they are really helping.

Scott Walker from what I have heard and seen is close to being a true Conservative and that is the only reason he is being targeted with this recall.

To Runner99 (19.4) who said, "Oh, here we go with the race card. Knock it off already. Jeez Louise, that just lost a ton in credibility.' ..... and

To Global777 (19.5) who said, "I continue to ask... Why does the left always play the race card first, and more frequently?"

Now, now ... we shouldn't even have to ask this question. The answer is ... (drum roll, please) .... Because the left has no other card to play.

Re: voter fraud - The data is readily available on the Internet. I've posted it on NV multiple times. NJ saw a rise in voter fraud in the 2008 election. One man in NJ drove from county to county voting at least 3 times on the same election day. In smaller elections in NJ, the family of one candidate voted for their relative even though they no longer lived in that town.

If voter fraud is a Republican fairy tale, then why does CNN report the following?

Philadelphia: http://archives.savejersey.com/2008/11/18/video-philly-man-confesses-voting-multiple-times-to-cnn.aspx

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-10-22/politics/voter.fraud_1_voter-registration-acorn-workers-number-of-swing-states?_s=PM:POLITICS

Let's not forget Chicago's longtime Democrat history of voter fraud .... JFK anyone?

It's easy to get fake ID. Just ask high school and college students how to get one!

They are so quick to question those that did not vote for BO. Yet, it seems clear why many of them did vote for BO.

Color of skin is not a qualification for the Presidency!

tomwcraig (19.6) and Global777 (19.8)-- I couldn't have said it better. With few exceptions, this current racial obsession is indeed a liberal thing. The best way to control a population is to keep people, especially minorities, dependent and ignorant. Governments and religions have successfully achieved this for centuries.

I don't recall hearing or reading about any USA voter labeled a racist prior to the 2008 election. Today, people ASSume too much. Didn't blacks vote prior to 2008? Didn't blacks ever express their dissatisfaction with any of our previous presidents' policies? Why did liberals and their liberal media wait until 2008 to jump on this race card that has worn out itself out?

I know that through the decades both whites and blacks have been dissatisfied. But, crickets chirping about blacks or any liberal pulling any race card prior to Obama. Hmmmmm.

Lies.

To Terry-2167801 (19.10) who said, "Lies." -- Such an attack! Please be cautious if/when you answer, for it seems that you are calling several fellow Viners in this particular part of the thread "LIARS." That is a CoH violation. I am, however, interested in what you consider "lies," what those unnamed lies are, and to whom you addressed your comment.

I'm looking forward to your response.

To feliznavidad who said at 19.12: "NJ Person -- #19.11 -- A bit too pushy here. ...... One could be merely misinformed, and thus quoting liars. While we are considering voter fraud, let us remember Florida in the first Bush election, and Ohio in the second Bush election. Plenty of evidence exists in support of both."

What quotes did 19.10 provide? Yet, you accuse me of being "a bit too pushy?" Why? What did I say in 19.11 that was pushy? All I asked 19.10 for was clarity and (hopefully) documentation when intimating what "lies" meant to that poster.

It's so easy to be selective, is it not? I didn't notice you asking 19.10 to verify who is a liar. You merely glossed over that as a person being "misinformed." I expect better of article moderators.

Perhaps you are too young to remember JFK, other Kennedys, and decades of myriad Democrat voter fraud. You could start your research by learning about 18th through early 20th century disenfranchisement and fraud. But, if the best you can do is continuing the myopic G.W. Bush accusations, there is much U.S. history you haven't learned.

If you really want to examine Democratic voter fraud, you just need to look at the history of Chicago. It is one town that everyone, with any history background, knows has rampant fraud and it has never been cleared of it.

If you really want to investigate voter fraud look no farther than the republicans who have the largest majority of voter fraud convictions and indictments.

feliznavidad (19.15) who said, "NJ-- Got your head full of steam, do you?" ---- So, rather than answer my questions of 19.13, you call me vacuous. Do you know what happens to those who degrade fellow Newsviners? You might want to reread CoH.

republicans who have the largest majority of voter fraud convictions and indictments.

Don...link please.

Although I don't have a link right now, I was listening to a social debate in Michigan where they had determined overwhelming majority of voter fraud was democratic votes.

Of course, now that we have Government controlled media and a Soros funded Google, they will suppress any links accusing democrats. But here are a few I saved....

Top Union Official Caught on Tape Discussing Voter Fraud

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2010/10/demo-coup-alert-they-are-stealing-the-election.html

NO WONDER HARRY REID WON!!!

Nevada voting machines automatically checking Harry Reid's name; voting machine technicians are SEIU members

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/Voting-machines-in-Clark-County-Nevada-automatically-checking-Harry-Reids-name-Voting-machine-technicians-are-members-of-SEIU-105815608.html

Texas: Former SEIU Member Registers 23,207 Fraudulent Voters
http://blogs.chron.com/texassparkle/2010/09/citizens_group_uncovers_massiv.html

""""The outcome of the efforts grew in importance the day after Vasquez made his announcement. On the morning of Aug. 27, a three-alarm fire destroyed almost all of Harris County's voting machines, throwing the upcoming Nov. 2 election into turmoil. While the cause wasn't determined, the $40 million blaze, according to press reports, means election officials will be focused on creating a whole new voting system in six weeks.""""

Acorn Sentenced

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=332061

"""""Judge Mosley said that if an individual, as opposed to a nonprofit corporation, had been before him, he would have ordered that person to serve 10 years behind bars.

"And I wouldn't have thought twice about it," he said.

" ACORN has made a "mockeryof America's electoral process, the Las Vegas Review-Journal quoted Mosley saying. "This isn't a banana republic."""""""

waves of grain

Soros has NEVER tried to determine the content of any media organization that he funds. Yeah you stick a bunch of right wing extremists in a room and they are going to think that Obama drove the nails that put christ on the cross. Doesn't make it true.

But hey, you just keep believing that crap.

Soros has NEVER tried to determine the content of any media organization that he funds.

Oh, WOW, now that is some funny crap there...

(HOLDING sides laughing)

No, he just determines the content of all 200+ political organizations that he funds!

Jonathan-1917156

Soros has NEVER tried to determine the content of any media organization that he funds.

What a bunch of crap. Remember the Million Dollars Soros gave to Media Matters "earmarked" solely to try and bring down FOX and G. Beck. I'm sure even you can remember that one, and that's just because it was obvious and verified by Media Matters themselves.

ron

if that happened, you completely miss the point of him donating to causes that he may agree with as opposed to funding some organization and then telling them to do something.

Now, when it comes to the right, you have the Koch brothers actually funding an organization that writes legislation that pushes their view.

So yeah, total bull@!$%#, only it's coming from the radical right.

Oh and I peruse Media Matters about as much as I peruse Fox (actually I peruse Media Matters less). That is pretty much close to not at all.

Koch brothers actually funding an organization that writes legislation that pushes their view.

What do you call Obama's Union bailouts! What do you call his funding Acorn? Soros DOES spend billions to further his agenda. He has destroyed other economies around the world, been kicked out of Russia. All those "Open Society" orgs he founded? They are now banned in some countries. After he went through and tried to fundamentally change those countries, and their economies began to collapse, then he was told to scoot. He has been convincted of insider trading in France and wanted in Russia, destroyed Thailand and Argentina. In America, he finally found a cohert...Obama.

Read this link.....

Blueprint For America........

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/blog5.php/2011/04/23/blueprint-for-america-soros-and-the-globalists-takeover-of-argentina

Let's see, there are a couple organizations who got funding from George Soros that were HEAVILY involved in writing legislation: http://apolloalliance.org/ which helped to craft the Stimulus. By the way, here's their funding list: http://apolloalliance.org/about/funders/ Compare that to this list of organizations that the Open Society Institute, which George Soros founded and funds, funds:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1237

Now, don't tell me that Soros doesn't fund organizations that write the legislation, "unlike the Koch brothers".

waves.

non of that is true, and you saying it is is just total bogus partisan bull@!$%#.

As for the other countries, you do know that the salvation army was ALSO kicked out of a lot of those countries. It was more a kick out of all NGO's.

As for the auto industry, why don't you add up all the jobs (direct and indirect) in the auto industry, turn them onto the unemployment lines and see how much THAT would have cost the country. (hint, the money spend on the bailout is NOTHING compared to that cost). And none of the bull@!$%# of someone else picking up the pieces, because that wouldn't have happened, ALL 3 of the big three would have been taken down (yes, ford too).

Vol fan, we just couldn't write this stuff ourselves to be comedy for cash. Holy cow! Still laughing my ass off.

Waves take your pick

https://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=republican+voter+fraud&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwKNaIC6tDM

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/12/aide_to_former_maryland_gop_governor_found_guilty.php

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_12/conviction_in_gop_votersuppres033951.php

Can keep this up going back in history.

#19.27, #19.26,#19.25

All the right has are conspiracy theories. Not a fact in the bunch.

Don

I certainly hope you weren't putting me in the same group as the two right wing extremists in the other two posts you pointed out!!!

Jonathan-1917156

Sorry for that I didn't mean it. wasn't thinking of you. "whacks head on wall"

Yup caught that. Good old Milwaukee, Janesville, and Racine Counties all thought they were playing it smart with their union thugtastics by beating the deadline for collective bargaining. Guess what? The union and their votes bought them 152 teacher layoffs collectively, with more to come because the budget won't allow the current pay load. Madison, WI didn't reach a new union agreement before the deadline, and lived with the new requirements. Guess what. With the savings, they opened up a new K-4 program, built a new Middle School, hired new staff, and some were even given merit based pay raises, but you'll never read about that in the news. Oh hell, it worked, crap, keep a lid on on it. Geeez.

Nope, the union's are thugs.

I Stand By Scott Walker! Union tactics are thuggery and illegal. They use bullying to get what they want.

This is from I Stand With Scott Walker site. Look at all the UNFUNDED PUBLIC PENSIONS!!! In Obama's stomping ground, no doubt!! And what do you bet, they will want the FEDERAL TAXPAYERS to BAIL THEM OUT. Why should private sector taxpayers keep paying thrice for Unions??? Write your Reps and tell them you do not want this happening in your state. NO STATE BAILOUTS. This is what Scott Walker is trying to prevent!!

""Illinois credit downgraded to the lowest in U.S, does the left still want to keep comparing Wisconsin to Illinois?

Credit Downgrade Make Illinois the Lowest Rated State

http://www.stltoday.com/business/columns/david-nicklaus/credit-downgrade-makes-illinois-the-lowest-rated-state/article_50a80eda-38a3-11e1-a530-001a4bcf6878.html

""""Illinois' new offering documents show that its chronic pension shortfall got even worse in fiscal 2011. According to Bond Buyer, the unfunded pension liability grew by $7 billion last year, and the funded ratio -- the amount of liabilities that can be covered by fund assets -- fell to 43 percent from 45 percent.""""""

To feliznavidad (59.2) who said, "I am real tired of "thug" talk." Frankly, I'm tired of race card AND thug talk. But, unless you've been in a union, you don't know what power it wields over being able to hold on to your job. In my long public school teaching career, I was a non-tenured teacher twice. I was told by union reps many times how to vote if I wanted to keep my job. That's not thuggery? (Ya know what I mean? Bada bing, bada boom)

Please consider researching Barbara Keshishian, NJEA President. She's still "on the books" as an active "teacher" in her former district but hasn't been actively teaching there for years. She has a super salary ($270K) and a very, very sweet pension coming her way. But of course, she's not a thug either, right? Check out the salaries and pensions of the other high echelon NJEA people. Then, school superintendents pensions are worth a look, too. Robert Aloia (Bergen Tech) and a few others are noteworthy thugs. Suffice it to say that fiscally responsible Governor Chris Christie is on their "hit list" - none of them like him, because he has called them to task.

Regular public employees, be they teachers, firefighters, police, etc., are all hard-working people. I was one of them for 30 years. But, today, it's not unreasonable to require public employees to contribute toward their pensions and healthcare ... the private sector has been forced to do this for decades.

The debacle in Wisconsin was atrocious, IMO. While teachers were camping out "in protest," who educated the children of Wisconsin's taxpayers? I will tell you who: substitute teachers- another expense. I've done that job, too, and it's NOT easy to do when the classroom teacher doesn't leave a lesson plan, student name list (in case of lockdown, fire, etc), and locks up all supplies (paper, pencils, etc).

Oh for the love.................deflection here?

A real dictionary shows no bias. It's a resource tool that defines words. Oh wait .... you use www.urbandictionary.com as a go-to, universally accepted "dictionary." Merriam-Webster is really much more reliable and accepted ... unless all one is searching is "ghetto talk."

By the way, I did not say that TEACHERS are thugs, so you can't "agree" with me about that. I said that the upper echelons in unions (all types of unions) are the people who collect outrageous salaries and bennies and that union LEADERS intimate, i.e., communicate indirectly, to teachers how to vote. Don't put words in my mouth!

Another by the way ..... isn't the topic of YOUR article Governor Walker? Why are you going on and on about dictionaries and Tupac?

Another by the way ..... isn't the topic of YOUR article Governor Walker? Why are you going on and on about dictionaries and Tupac?

Because of the less that accurate and totally inane comments. NJ.

Yeah, the price is integrity....ever heard of it.

Probably more than you have.

Post with some substance. Let's try this again.

I stopped thinking the Republicans had integrity with Ronald Reagen. He is why i can no longer vote Republican. I still hold him responsible for the problems we face today.

Yes, I used to be a Republican.

President Reagan is not the topic of discussion.

Agreed. My bad. The entire Santorum phenomenon has my blood boiling. My apologies.

No problem. Have a good one.

You weren't questioning the integrity of the judge the unions found to declare Walker's bill unconstitutional. Even when a higher court not only overrruled her but made it known she had given herself the power to rule on a case that wasn't within the guidelines of her court to be ruled on.

BRAVO tyler!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Great point.

Jeff in Houston, sorry about post 21.1. You didn't deserve that, my blood was a little on the hot side too.

And Walker banks on Koch. to save his balls.

I love the people here spouting off about this recall and Gov. Walker that don't know crap from hole in the ground about it. "Come on let's talk smack about something we only know talking points about because we kinda heard it in the news, sort of, and plus I like band wagons even if I don't know a damned thing about it or what the in the holy hell I'm talking about." Well duh!

Mike the vet............what evidence do you have.

What....mike the vet.....I didn't hear you.

Sorry I was busy on something else, so now we're talking about hearsay, gee I heard from someone who said they signed a petition 80 times must have be a Republican. by the way this is in reference to tylers post.

Nope. Yours @ 22.1

#22.4. Hearsay, Mike? The guy was on televison, no hearsay about it. He didn't say what party he belonged to and neither did I in my post. Fancy you right away labeling him a republican.

Mike the vet. Still waiting for your answer on 22.2 re 22.1. Was that meant to be funny, ha ha, or can you back that up?

@ #22:

You mean fraudulent like this???

Signatures of names like Mickey Mouse and Adolf Hitler are being considered valid on recall petitions of Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker as long as they are properly dated, a government board indicated Tuesday.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70429.html#ixzz1injrKkcz

There are 11 people named Mickey Mouse in Wisconsin; there is one person named Adolph Hitler in Beloit, WI; there are two people named Adolf Hitler in Wisconsin (one in Eau Claire, one in Junction City).

There are 11 people named Mickey Mouse in Wisconsin; there is one person named Adolph Hitler in Beloit, WI; there are two people named Adolf Hitler in Wisconsin (one in Eau Claire, one in Junction City).

It's really pathetic how conservatives try and claim a signature is fake simply based on a name. It really shows how ignorant they actually are.

Back when I was in LE I ran into quite a few people named after cartoon characters and famous people. I even once wrote traffic citations to Mickey Mouse, Santa Clause and even an Adolph Hitler. People named after cartoon characters and famous people are quite common. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either stupid or doesn't get out much.

At #22.10 and #22.11 LOL!!!

Blaze, where is LE? Is it anywhere close to WI? No? So we let Mickey Mouse, Daffy Duck, Elmer, and Speedy have a stay on the petitions......Okay......we good? Now how about the people that boasted of multiple signatures, we gonna let that stay? If it was recall for a lib would you be so fair and open minded. Come on...........be honest.

Talking points here steven..........whatcha got?

I stated a fact. :)

Does stripping away the rights of workers to representation ring a bell?

They did not strip away any rights. The unions still have the right of collective bargaining......did you know that? Tell me what you understand about this and what the public workers lost.

runner.

only they have nothing to bargain over, THAT is the rights that were stripped.

Yes they do have bargaining power over most. Look again and make the comparison to the Ohio referendum 2. Read the bill, it's inclusive of what the taxpayer's burden is in regard to the benefits package only. Ohio did not pass their bill and are facing some serious loss with regard to busing and athletics plus serious layoff of teachers because of fiscal issues.

They can bargain as long as they agree, with no agreement the government body wins. That is not bargaining.

No. Steven, that's wrong. That's media hype.

Which unions are you speaking of? Public or private sector? Because yes I am right.

feliiznvidad - There were two key points in the collective bargaining talks. Tell me what they were for WI.

My sky was blue today.... I bet yours was not ...... :)

It sure was blue. You lose the bet

Agreeing the sky was blue today is a start.... that did not hurt to badly did it?

This conversation is bound to have disagreements which have nothing to do with the weather. The silly game playing proves the seriousness of intent.

Silly beats the hell out of beating my head against a brick wall.

In Ohio we managed to take back what our tea-publican Governor took. Since the last election he is keeping his head down and mouth shut. Seems he can work with the unions. I am confident the voters of Wisconsin will remove their koch Governor, and get back to repairing the damage he has done.

Hmm, well I see they CAN't answer your question...too bad they "brought a knife instead of a gun"...who said that? Oh yeah, B.O., the uniter in chief...pfft!

Runner, they always throw this crap on the wall to see what sticks. They they deflect when they can't answer the simple question...or they vanish...

@23.17 Off topic. Please stay on topic. The discussion is about WI and Gov Walker.

Boy oh boy vol fan, you are not just kidding. I'm still waiting for Feliznavidad to answer 23.11.

Off topic again. Please..............you know the rules.

Answer my question feliznavidad. The two points? Remember? What's your answer?

The Topic is actually Walker's Recall, not the Union Negotiations.

feliznavidad has been very lenient with you in my opinion.

The two are connected. Lenient? Please follow along.

I don't know feliznavidad- - - If you look up the thread to the current vote count, Runner99 seems to have a LOT more votes up on her comments than you ... and you're the Seeder on this article. Could you be losing your argument? Not a lot of votes for the people who are arguing the points with you either.

and ... you still haven't answered the question she posed in # 23.11

Ron

popularity means nothing.

Jonathan-1917156 - - - When talking about Unions ... you just might be correct on that

Ron W.

You know, as far as I am concerned, the MOMENT you bring up the 'evil unions' bull@!$%#, you completely discredit yourself.

This has SWEET @!$%# ALL to do with Unions, this has to do with how the procedures about a recall work. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Hell if Unions are so bad, how come Germany has a much healthier economy than the so called anti union US.

Idiocy is Idiocy, regardless of whether it is 1%'r, management, government, union, or just plain radical political bull@!$%#.

feliz,

as the seeder, if you aren't going to moderate, than you should close the article up.

I have yet to see ANY PROOF from the guys posting here on your side...but we already established that one guy said he signed the petition 80 times...sooooo